Enter the ranty-pants: "the conversation"
Jun. 7th, 2014 06:47 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
boogieshoes I was bonding with our intern the other day over the dropped-jaw reaction to our profession – which is ‘aerospace engineering’. We both agreed that we were tired of the conversation. You know, the one that goes:
Random Person (RP): So, what do you do? (What’s you’re major?)
Me: I’m an aerospace engineer.
RP: …
RP: …
Now, I know that dropping that profession on someone is kind of like accidentally meeting a famous actor at a random grocery store. Average, every-day people generally don’t expect things like that to happen, and they’re caught off-guard. So I understand the mental fumbling around for something to say. I’m willing to give a little bit of slack for that.
But still, it causes me to cringe a little bit if people can’t just take it in stride, because that means the next part of the conversation has a good chance of being a disaster, especially because, yes, I’m a female engineer, and for some reason, that attracts a lot of negative commentary. Or maybe it’s the fact that I’m so obviously not worried about being traditionally feminine, with make-up and frilly (or even just expensive) clothes and what-not. Whatever the reason, if RP is male, the next part of the conversation often sounds like he’s trying to impress me or one-up me or otherwise diminish my worth:
RP: So I guess you got a nice car, well I’ve got a (insert some vehicle here).
Men from the Baen Books circles often do this with guns:
RP: Yeah, but I bet you can’t shoot a gun – I’ve got a Mosin-Nagent I just bought for $50 dollars!
RP: But how much money do you make?
Both sexes will often ask the following question:
“What does your husband think of your career?”
And upon hearing that I’m not married, “Well, I guess that’s ok while you’re single, but what happens when you find someone?”
From women specifically, I often get the implication that I’m less of a woman because I don’t have/ am not really wanting children. The read I get on the situation is that they’re somehow threatened by me, which is weird, because I’ve never been the one attracting boyfriends or playing for guys or whatever it is women get caught up in. (I don’t hang out with a ton of other ladies; I’ve always been ‘one of the guys’.)
When someone makes a crack that I’m not dateable because I’m (too smart, too independent, too tough, been alone too long, whatever), I usually exit stage left. Often, without even saying ‘Excuse me’ or some other social lubricant phrase, and not even because I’m angry or irritated. The conversation happens often enough that by now I’m just resigned and bored. And who wants to be stuck in a boring and insulting conversation?
Oddly enough, I tend *not* to get these responses from other engineers. I suppose it’s a lot like being a female pilot or race-car driver: there comes a point where the skills you know are universally acknowledged among the subset you belong to as being tough to acquire. Those with said skills are respected by their subset regardless of gender, somewhat to the bafflement of some of the more zeal-infused feminists you run across. This doesn’t, by the way, mean they fawn on me. No, they treat me with respect, and measure my opinions against their own experience. This is how it should be.
The one reaction that cracked me up the most was when one of my co-workers asked me if I wasn’t going to stop working if I ever had a baby to take care of the child. My response?
“Why should I? There’s a high probability I’ll be making more money than my husband will, so why would I jeopardize the financial security of my family by letting him be the sole income-earner? If someone should stay home, the logical thing is the person making the least do that.”
He’d never thought about it like that – he was raised in a traditional family, and wanted a traditional family, and it never occurred to him that for me, the money situation would be reversed. I’d have given my right arm to take a picture of his face at that moment, the reaction was priceless. He did admit I had a point, but it wasn’t something he’d prefer. And that’s ok, as long as he’s ok with my own preferences being different than his.
But the point of this long introduction is that I was thinking about the reaction of other people to me and my chosen profession and education, and I could feel a rant. I want to emphasize that I’m not mad at any particular person, nothing has happened recently, but surely, there are other women out there like me, who are tired of the conversation. So I’m going to have a little fun here and put some ranty-pants on, and see if I ring a bell for anyone.
So in the form of a list:
Talking to me is actually fairly easy if you remember the following things:
In summary, I am who I am, and don’t need to change for you or anyone else to be fine just as I am. Can we have a different conversation, now?
-boogieshoes, the proud, independent, strong, working professional
* 'Seeing the elephant' is a euphemism for going into battle. Most of my military friends will agree that the metaphor fits, because battle isn't like anything else people face, therefore being nearly impossible to describe to someone who hasn't already been there. Just like it's impossible to convey the impression an elephant makes to someone who's experience of large animals stops at draft horses.
Random Person (RP): So, what do you do? (What’s you’re major?)
Me: I’m an aerospace engineer.
RP: …
RP: …
Now, I know that dropping that profession on someone is kind of like accidentally meeting a famous actor at a random grocery store. Average, every-day people generally don’t expect things like that to happen, and they’re caught off-guard. So I understand the mental fumbling around for something to say. I’m willing to give a little bit of slack for that.
But still, it causes me to cringe a little bit if people can’t just take it in stride, because that means the next part of the conversation has a good chance of being a disaster, especially because, yes, I’m a female engineer, and for some reason, that attracts a lot of negative commentary. Or maybe it’s the fact that I’m so obviously not worried about being traditionally feminine, with make-up and frilly (or even just expensive) clothes and what-not. Whatever the reason, if RP is male, the next part of the conversation often sounds like he’s trying to impress me or one-up me or otherwise diminish my worth:
RP: So I guess you got a nice car, well I’ve got a (insert some vehicle here).
Men from the Baen Books circles often do this with guns:
RP: Yeah, but I bet you can’t shoot a gun – I’ve got a Mosin-Nagent I just bought for $50 dollars!
RP: But how much money do you make?
Both sexes will often ask the following question:
“What does your husband think of your career?”
And upon hearing that I’m not married, “Well, I guess that’s ok while you’re single, but what happens when you find someone?”
From women specifically, I often get the implication that I’m less of a woman because I don’t have/ am not really wanting children. The read I get on the situation is that they’re somehow threatened by me, which is weird, because I’ve never been the one attracting boyfriends or playing for guys or whatever it is women get caught up in. (I don’t hang out with a ton of other ladies; I’ve always been ‘one of the guys’.)
When someone makes a crack that I’m not dateable because I’m (too smart, too independent, too tough, been alone too long, whatever), I usually exit stage left. Often, without even saying ‘Excuse me’ or some other social lubricant phrase, and not even because I’m angry or irritated. The conversation happens often enough that by now I’m just resigned and bored. And who wants to be stuck in a boring and insulting conversation?
Oddly enough, I tend *not* to get these responses from other engineers. I suppose it’s a lot like being a female pilot or race-car driver: there comes a point where the skills you know are universally acknowledged among the subset you belong to as being tough to acquire. Those with said skills are respected by their subset regardless of gender, somewhat to the bafflement of some of the more zeal-infused feminists you run across. This doesn’t, by the way, mean they fawn on me. No, they treat me with respect, and measure my opinions against their own experience. This is how it should be.
The one reaction that cracked me up the most was when one of my co-workers asked me if I wasn’t going to stop working if I ever had a baby to take care of the child. My response?
“Why should I? There’s a high probability I’ll be making more money than my husband will, so why would I jeopardize the financial security of my family by letting him be the sole income-earner? If someone should stay home, the logical thing is the person making the least do that.”
He’d never thought about it like that – he was raised in a traditional family, and wanted a traditional family, and it never occurred to him that for me, the money situation would be reversed. I’d have given my right arm to take a picture of his face at that moment, the reaction was priceless. He did admit I had a point, but it wasn’t something he’d prefer. And that’s ok, as long as he’s ok with my own preferences being different than his.
But the point of this long introduction is that I was thinking about the reaction of other people to me and my chosen profession and education, and I could feel a rant. I want to emphasize that I’m not mad at any particular person, nothing has happened recently, but surely, there are other women out there like me, who are tired of the conversation. So I’m going to have a little fun here and put some ranty-pants on, and see if I ring a bell for anyone.
So in the form of a list:
- Yes, I am a female.
- Yes, I have a BS in aerospace engineering from Texas A&M University.
- Yes, I have a MS in Fluid Flow and Propulsion from the U of Cincinnati.
- Yes, I have a good-paying job.
- Yes, it’s in my field of choice.
- Yes, I do well enough at it that I see it at bonus-time and through positive feedback.
- I am not too smart.
- I am not too stubborn.
- I am not too physically strong.
- I am not too independent.
- I am not too capable.
- I have not lived alone too long.
- No, there is not "too much math" in my life.
- I am not too cold.
- I am not too emotionally distant.
- I am not frigid.
- I am not asexual (as in, having no libido).
- I am not a lesbian. I have nothing against lesbians, but I’m about as straight as can be.
- I am not too masculine.
- I am not too butch.
- I do not have to wear make-up or dresses to conform to some ill-defined idea of femininity.
- I don’t actually need to feel feminine. Or masculine. I’ve come round to the point where I’m pretty comfortable identifying as gender-neutral.
- I do not need to have someone make a real woman out of me.
- I do not need to have children to feel complete.
- I don’t hate children, even if I don’t want them.
- I do not need to get married. I want to, and to have a committed relationship similar to my parents and other long-term relationships I hold in high esteem, but ‘want’ is a long way from ‘need’.
- I am not impressed by your wallet. I make plenty of money.
- I am not impressed by your car. Mostly because I’m not a car-person, but also, because I have a perfectly serviceable truck of my own. His name is Zeke.
- I am not impressed by your guns. This is mostly because guns make lots of loud noises, and I find that bothers me more than the concept of guns themselves. Also, guns are like hammers. They’re tools. When I feel the need to get a gun, I’ll get one, and take the appropriate safety courses. But I am not impressed by your collection of guns, just like I’m not impressed by your collection of power-tools.
- Yes, I have my own power-tools, and can use them competently.
- I am not impressed that you have seen the elephant*, and I can’t. I will be impressed if you accept my wish to have been there in the patriotic spirit it is offered.
- I am not impressed by your career, whatever that is. I’ll be impressed if you can answer questions coherently and transmit knowledge in a manner that is neither patronizing nor too vague to do any actual good.
- I do not need to act stupid to attract a man. In fact, I refuse to do so. If you can’t handle me the way I am, I’m not the woman for you.
- I do not speak the way I do to ‘act superior’ to others. I enjoy being precise in my use of language, and linguistic history and etymology. In the English language, the prevailing trend is that the more precisely nuanced the word is, the more syllables it has, and often, the more archaic-sounding to the 21st century ear it is.
- I do not keep silent to act superior to others. I keep silent because I have nothing to say, and/or believe I won’t be listened to anyway. I do not enjoy wasting effort.
Talking to me is actually fairly easy if you remember the following things:
- Talk to *me*. Don’t talk to who you think I am, don’t talk to your fetish object, don’t talk to what you think I must like or be or do. Don’t talk to the woman you want to be your little girl’s hero. Talk to me. I’ve got opinions and logic of my own. They’re probably different than what you think they should be.
- *Listen* to me. Listen to my answers when you ask questions. If you ask a question twice, because of noise, that’s one thing. But if you ask a question and then a) don’t stop to let me answer and/or b) interrupt me while I’m answering, or c) ask the same thing in five minutes because you didn’t pay attention the first time, I’m going to get irritated. But especially, don’t hear what you think I should be saying, hear what I actually say.
- Respect other people for being human beings. This means treating others like you would like to be treated, and listening politely when they speak. You don’t have to agree with them, you don’t have to like them, you may wind up facing them in battle, but that’s a far cry from acting like they’re dirt.
- Understand that I like to build things. I have my own (small but growing) stash of carpentry tools and ideas. I like fixing things. I don’t usually complain about stuff because I need help with it, but because it’s irritating the snot out of me. In fact, this is the one area where I’m most like a traditional woman – assuming I need help to solve whatever problem I’m complaining about isn’t the best idea. Unless I specifically ask for help, don’t assume I need it.
- Yes, I’m a lot like Temperance Brennan of Bones. I know a lot of random stuff and will often dispense information without making the connections for others. You’ll probably have to work to get me out of my ‘safe zone’. My safe zone happens to be mathematics and physics. Comforting to me is reviewing my continuum mechanics equations, and I have been known to practice integrals and/or differentials when I’m stressed. Emotions are outside my comfort zone – I often have difficulty identifying them in myself, let alone others. Processing emotions can be a longer affair than you may be used to. But I’m not cold or frigid or emotionally distant.
- According to Meyers-Briggs, I'm a 100% introvert. What this means in the engineering world is that I talk to my own shoes. What this means in the interaction in other social situations is that I do not do all that well with groups more than 5 or 6 people large. In addition, I can get overstimulated when surrounded by large numbers of people and a lot of noise. I do better in the open air. But either indoors or outdoors, whether there's a lot of people around or just a few, even if I love every one of them, eventually I'm going to shut down and need to go to a private area to decompress. Don't take offense if I don't invite you to help me decompress - if I'm shutting down, even one more person is going to be a bit much for a while.
- Understand that I'm someone who tends to take things literally. Ask Strega42 if you don't believe me, but the following, especially when I'm tired, is not actually an *uncommon* occurrence: I was in a restaraunt once with a bunch of friends, and the waitress came around and asked if we were ready to order. I said 'Yes.' and stopped. She hadn't, after all, asked *what* we wanted to order, only if we were ready. So if I tell you I don't need help - well, I don't *need* help, but that doesn't mean I don't *want* help - or other things. Sometimes, you're going to have to ask both questions to get the right answer.
- Understand that I may not be the woman for you, but that doesn’t require you to belittle me or insult me by making a crack about me being undateable or frigid or whatever. Incompatibility doesn’t mean you’re superior to me. It doesn’t mean you’re inferior and need to make yourself feel better, either.
In summary, I am who I am, and don’t need to change for you or anyone else to be fine just as I am. Can we have a different conversation, now?
-boogieshoes, the proud, independent, strong, working professional
* 'Seeing the elephant' is a euphemism for going into battle. Most of my military friends will agree that the metaphor fits, because battle isn't like anything else people face, therefore being nearly impossible to describe to someone who hasn't already been there. Just like it's impossible to convey the impression an elephant makes to someone who's experience of large animals stops at draft horses.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 12:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 12:37 am (UTC)weirdly to me is that the harshest reactions tend to come from other women, and i don't know why.
i do know most male engineers never have issues, in fact, they never think about the gender stuff. which is part of the problem, of course - they don't think about how acting skewed from gender norms affect people. this is perfectly understandable, because 1) *they* are not acting differently from normal and 2) their collective heads are stuck into numbers, like me.
there are sexist assholes out there, there's no denying this. i find them more in casual social settings than business settings, which apparently backwards from where most ladies experience the worst bits of sexism.
i do think the whole thing is indicative of a society still transitioning from viewing women's proper place as strictly in the home to realizing women can be successful in all professions.
it's a thinky thing.
-bs
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 07:17 am (UTC)Way back when Clinton was nearing the end of his presidency, there was talk of 'what if Hillary ran'. For president, I mean. I knew way more women who would say stuff like, "But women can't be president. We're too emotional." It would drive me nucking futs.
Whereas most guys I knew were like, "Well, it depends on her running mate, and who's running against her..."
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 03:55 am (UTC)Normally I've seen, first hand, such discussions go like this instead.
Cool. Btw do you know how to shoot? We're having a shoot at this con. Want to go? If you don't know how we'll have certified safety range classes and everyone will be happy to show you how to handle a gun/rifle etc...
That's about it.
Other than asking who you read and if you know where Bar Fly Central is. (that's the booze heavy, food plentiful barfly party room.)
The Dwarf aka Brodder FoamyMugs
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 04:54 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 05:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 06:25 pm (UTC)I do love my Baen friends, but as buddykat says below, not all male Barflies are the same. I've had some of the most awesome reactions from male Barflies ("dammit, I'm already married!" is one of my favorite, because it implies a lot respect and attraction) and some of the worst from *other* male Barflies ("Yeah, but you can't do XYZ!").
-bs
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 03:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 06:26 pm (UTC)-bs
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 05:01 am (UTC)(because otherwise I'd be figuring out how to ask you out on a date)
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 05:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 06:27 pm (UTC)-bs
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 05:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 07:02 pm (UTC)-bs
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 05:19 am (UTC)What you've written is a somewhat familiar experience for technical types who don't fit the social program, with your extra "benefit" of not fitting with some folks' ideas of womanhood.
Typing is hard. Drinking a mixed bourbon near a pool at LibertyCon in a few weeks is less hard.
You going to be there?
-BLT
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 07:01 pm (UTC)i'm going to miss you, though, and everyone else. hoist a whiskey for me.
-boogieshoes
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 05:39 am (UTC)Me - "Cool, what kind of systems and projects do you work on?"
(Seriously, now I'm curious what you work on)
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 07:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 06:59 pm (UTC)-bs
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 06:59 pm (UTC)i generally don't go into detail on the internets because i prefer that distinction between professional and personal life, and also, in such a small industry, it's hard to remain part of the anonymous masses....
at any rate, future career goals include a stint at the NTSB if can swing it, and teaching at a college, since i love to pass knowledge on. to do the NTSB thing, i'm looking at getting into more material mechanics and stress type things than what i do now, which, is primarily fluid-structures interaction and system integration/ project focal work.
and i love computational fluid mechanics (CFD). i'd love to get my doctorate in CFD one day... *sighs dreamily*
ahem... did i mention i love numbers? *grins*
-bs
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 07:11 am (UTC)When he was our teacher, she was the assistant department head, and was probably going to be the department head one day.
I can't tell you how many folks seem to think it odd, and I would get pretty defensive about it. No one in our classes thought it odd. In fact, I knew a few students who were engaged, planned to get married after their degrees, and had the same arrangement with their fiancés. Some of these couples, I remember thinking that the woman would probably end up still working, while the guy stayed home.
And that truck. Nice truck.
I'll admit that I'm impressed that you made it in the engineering field. (Clipping because I read your reply above.)
I would have replied, "So you must be good at math."
I have trouble with numbers, I can't see them in my head (love my cell phone calculator) and when I try to do long division, one of the numbers will always run and hide from me. So I forget it, and then end up with wrong answers.
Please tell me none of that sexism came from women. Though sometimes I find that women can be worse misogynists then men. (Debi Pearl and Mary Pride, for example.)
PS, I totally understand about the sensory overload thing. Or that's what I call it when I have it. It's like I can't stand Fiesta Food Mart when it's really busy. Or Target. The noise in the place is a dull roar that gets on my nerves. It's why I'm glad that my dad finally started using closed captions on the TV. He can't hear, so he would turn up the volume to a level that would drive me out of the house.
PPS I also do art, and I find that at an art gallery, or while reading an art book, I'll start to feel this 'sensory overload' so I either have to put the book down, or if in a gallery, find a spot to sit in with my eyes closed.
It's really annoying that at the DMA, they took a lot of the benches out, and you are not allowed to bring in folding stools. I have to go find a corner and sit on the floor. (At least the staff never bothers me when I do this. Perhaps they're used to folks doing the same?)
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 07:20 pm (UTC)i've never been child-oriented or wanted children. if the majority of women were like me, we'd have the incredible shrinking race.
but i think it makes people... take that step back, like when they're confronted with a gorilla, or someone who'd got a disfiguring disease. when you're confronted with a complete unknown, especially when you've already made assumptions based on what you *think* you know, it's hard to figure out what to do next. a lot of people don't like feeling discombobulated, and react in anger or fear. they might later sit down and rethink, but that first reaction is the one that gets 'heard'.
we're changing a lot of things as a society that were settled for a long, long time, per feudal European standards, and we're doing it pretty quickly. it's being helped - or not, depending on your viewpoint - along with technology. it's bound to get feathers ruffled and cause people sturm und drang.
i'm not really surprised at *where* it's happening - the US has a very solid set of 'traditional roles' for men and women, and women engineers are not 'traditional' in our popular culture. engineers in general don't get portrayed a lot on tv and movies, so it's not something people think about a whole lot, or have a chance to get used to, like women doctors vis a vis ER and Chicago Hope and stuff.
i am kind of surprised that most male *engineers* don't have a problem with female engineers. they may be socially awkward, but i've never run across male engineers commenting on female engineering skills because of *gender*. i'm happy i don't have to deal with that, all things considered. surprised, but happy.
-boogieshoes
no subject
Date: 2014-06-09 08:18 am (UTC)That's probably because people who put gender above actual skills and knowledge are the ones who will never be able to become a good engineer in the first place. So I would think of it as "smart people are not into all these stereotypes about how women are of inferior race, and most engineers are smart (they wouldn't be engineers otherwise!)"
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 01:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 06:48 pm (UTC)to the meat of your comment, i cannot say whether you are wrong or right, until i come across the situation. i can say it's normal for all parents to want to spend time with their children, just as it's normal to for all parents to want to make things as safe as possible for their children.
in my point of view, financial security is one of the major bullet points under 'make things as safe as possible'. it is therefore only logical that the person making the most money be the one to keep his/her job. it's normal/ traditional for the man to be the one making the most money. it simply happens to be reversed in my case. this doesn't make me cold - it does make me logic-oriented than emotion-oriented, though.
-bs
no subject
Date: 2014-06-09 08:23 am (UTC)Not everybody thinks like this. Most of the people won't plan anything at all, so even if both have no job and no financial security etc., and don't know what they will eat tomorrow, they still going to have a baby because "CHILDREN ARE THE MEANING OF LIFE". And then they're going to have another baby, and another one.
That's just plain irresponsible towards children as well.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-09 04:42 pm (UTC)And the logic vs. emotional decision basis here isn't really what's at play (unless you feel that you would find it more personally satisfying to change diapers and watch Barney videos than it is to make things fly but you're prepared to give up a lifetime supply of burp cloths for the rocket scientist paycheck). This isn't logic vs. emotion, this is reason vs. dogma. It's challenging antiquated stereotypes about what you should be and embracing who you are and what you want. Anonymous here is telling you that you shouldn't want what you want and shouldn't be what you are, and you know what? Fuck him and the stunted pony he rode in on. And if that isn't an emotional enough response, just let me know, I can take it up a notch.
Boogieshoes, I love your rantypants rant. As one girlgeek to another, you rock and/or roll, and probably make things explode. Because, you know, rockets.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 02:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 06:51 pm (UTC)it is difficult to tell the psychology or impetus of any conversational partner, of course. and whoever it is could simply be having a bad day. like i said to The Dwarf upthread, i've had both good and bad reactions from other Baen Barflies.
Barflies are a group like any other, and made up of the good, the bad, and the downright bizarre, just like any other.
-bs
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 03:55 pm (UTC)Sanford
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 06:42 pm (UTC)this is undoubtedly a good part of the issue. squeaky wheel gets the grease - or the rant - and all that. and as i said, this was not predicated on a recent incident, just a general impression of 'dumb things people say' over the years.
recently, since i bought my house, i've found myself a lot more content: there's something about owning your own plot of land to take care for. plus, i love to garden, and my dog, and.. ;) excuse me while i wax poetic over all the hair my dog sheds, hah. but at any rate, i'm mostly content. the non-content part is because if i get too content, i'll never accomplish my dream, which is to be somewhat like Andrew Carnegi: make a ton of money and then give it back to the populace in such a way as to improve the lives of thousands of others. i'm hoping to avoid the 'crushing all the people who made it possible in the process' though. turn-of-the-century moguls could be real jerks sometimes.
congratulations on finding a lady of your dreams! may you have many good decades together.
-boogieshoes
no subject
Date: 2014-06-08 07:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-06-09 12:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-06-09 04:05 am (UTC)If they run away terrified at a GASP girl GASP who is involved in spacecraft design, then that's a good coarse filter.
My boy's just about to turn 13, parenthood was important to me, and right now with the cuts to education funding, my usual gig as an adjunct teaching systems engineering has dried up - so financially things could be better. But otherwise, we're pretty much the same.