odds and ends day, with a bit of character meta

[boogieshoes]

so, there are a few things going on in my life right now which sort of dovetail together, and make me sneeze.  (hay fever)

one of them is that post-offering the character study of ATF!Chris, i got to thinking i might do one for each of Mag7 guys, and the next char who spoke in my head was Buck.  and i started writing a little something, and then ran across a few questions regarding Buck's and Chris's developing relationship in their BUD/S training days, which in turn led me to emailing my handy dandy RL retired SEAL friend those questions.  RL!SEAL sent me an answer, which did two things - 1) it promptly cracked me up, and 2), it made me wonder...


... just how the hell we, Mag7 fandom, have managed to get ATF!Buck and ATF!Chris so wrong?!  presuming they really are retired SEALs, i mean.  because my RL!SEAL friend? is totally north by northwest.  and we have Buck and Chris riding those southerly winds. 

and judging by my friend, even with all the crap Chris and Buck have been through, they should be at  least northeast, you know?  i mean, my friend was on an active SEAL team, then  spent some time training SEAL candidates, and later after he retired still did some silly things... like hiking, iirc, nearly an entire 5-6mile trail's worth with a stab wound from his own knife where the sheath had given way right above his thigh.  (or was that, he didn't have a sheath for the knife, and put it in his pocket not realizing the angle of the blade was just right?  yeah, i'm not sure which is worse, either!) 

a few years later, he tried to perform some self-surgery on the back of his neck with his knife, and the wound got infected, and he didn't go to the doctor to get it seen to for at least a week afterwards, maybe more... good thing he was in England then, or both 8bit (mutual friend of ours) and i would have beaten him to death with pillows!  i was all, 'i thought you had matured beyond that "young, dumb and full of come" stuff!'.  and he was all 'who me?' *insert shit-eating grin here). 

i swear, one of these days, i'm gonna meet up with him and take him and his wife to dinner, and he'll tell us a story that starts with 'this one time, in band camp, i was playing a piccolo and got hammered by the knife i was wearing clipped to the back of my shorts....'  and ends with, 'and broke the piccolo over his head and beat him to death with it while i was bleeding out - that was a hoot!'

of course, just a couple of years ago, when his first son, who is now in the 18-20 range himself, decided to go into BUD/S to follow in Papa's footsteps, my friend paid him a visit.  they have this course they run to benchmark themselves, and Papa came along for the first run.  understand, Papa's gotta be nearing 40 by now, and son and son's BUD/S class will all be around 18-22ish.  Papa smoked 'em all.... (that particular shit-eating grin was totally justified).

but anyway, all of this brings me back around to - why aren't ATF Chris and Buck doing stuff like this?  seriously?

actually, now that i think about it, JD should be getting one heck of a twisted education in team dynamics and what constitutes 'good times' and 'a piece of cake'.  because in addition to Buck and Chris, there's Vin, whom fannon has as a SpecOps warrior himself - snipers lead the way.  and then Josiah, whom some people have as a MAC-V SOG type in Viet Nam... and Nathan Jackson, infantry of the 'kill people and break things' variety, even if he was a medic... between the five of them, northwesterly(1) should be the team norm, not the angsty, down to earth people we've been writing about.  seriously, JD should be at least northeasterly by now, given whom he hangs out with!(2)

and also, i swear i'm going to write a piece sometime soon with Buck teasing Chris about being molested by gay male dolphins.

speaking of SEALs and the uber-fit,  i find myself going to the YMCA and mildly cringing.  i mean, i feel kind of pathetic next to everyone else and their muscles and what-not.  it's really rather pathetic to get on the elliptical for a grand total of five or six minutes and then have to stop and go home, while the people behind me are going for 15 or 20 minutes, or running for half-hour or so, and the guys in front of me are doing cross-fit WODs and lifting weights in a dedicated and impressive fashion. 

it doesn't bug me enough to stop going, but i'm sort of hoping that there aren't any SEALs or other SpecOps types there to see the horrible patheticness of my 'work-outs'.  especially because i've made a habit of boasting that 'hey, i can do that, too!'  right now, i can't do *$$$$*! :-p  it's embarrassing.  either that, or hope anyone present that they view me more kindly than i do. ;)

contemplating the RL!SEAL and the fictional!SEALs in my life, i realize once again that my life is boring.  and while i often don't mind that - i love the career i have chosen, and have been known to work the supporting math to releive stress - sometimes i wish i was important the way SEALs are.  or at least accomplished of important things.  saving people's lives, going to bat for the rest of us - that's important.  and also, assuming they get caught by the enemy, they might know something that could affect the rest of us.  that's important.  me?  not important.  i have no unique knowledge or skills that could save somebody's life - there are literally dozens just like me in my field, small as it is, and i could easily be traded for anyone else.  it's kind of depressing to know that just about anyone really *could* do what you do, and you'll never be the Princess Leia or Luke Skywalker you dreamed of.  this is the great nerd let-down of life, i think.  we all dream of being heroes, but only a few of us *get* to be.

and it makes me feel mad, because even knowing exactly why they are, i wish the military wasn't sexist about close combat MOSs.  or that i had been born with balls, so i *could* have gone into the CE brigades, or SEALs, or whatever.  and it makes me sad, because i still want to be a hero when i grow up.  and it makes me feel guilty for not doing *enough* to serve others.  and then i feel guilty for not being a good feminist and liking my body with boobs instead of balls, and fighting for the right for other boob-advantaged humans to be equal to the ball-sy ones.  and then i feel generically bad for 'not doing enough', for knowing that it will *never* 'be enough', no matter what i do.  although honestly, if i ever reach greatness or ultimate sacrifice, it will be because of that drive to be at least important enough to humanity to be a footnote in history, no matter who's writing.

and if that should happen, then my tombstone should read: 'she was molested by gay male dolphins, dammit!'


(1) 'the only easy day was yesterday', 'snipers lead the way', 'pain tells me i'm alive', and 'SERE was a lighthearted romp!'

(2) and also, it cracks me up to consider that Ezra might be the only real sane one among them(3).

(3) for the average-american definition of 'sane', i mean.

-bs

Comments

[valiha.livejournal.com]

OK, I don't feel competent enough at the moment to comment on any of the serious stuff at the end of your post, but I gotta ask about the first part:

being north by northwest? And Buck and Chris riding the southerly winds? I have no idea what that means. Unless the first is being batshit insane, and the second by-the-book. Enlighten me please!

[boogieshoes.livejournal.com]

that's pretty much it. it's a reference to Hamlet, where he says to Ophelia, 'I'm but mad north by northwest; when the wind is southerly, I know a hawk from a handsaw' - meaning he's only pretending to be insane. on the other hand, it also implies both more surface to their surface, and more depth to their depth. and as another friend and i were discussing a few minutes ago, military humor tends to be like cop humor and fireman humor - and the more so the closer they are to 'the pointy end of the stick'. it can get sick and twisted pretty quickly by 'normal' standards, but it's a way of distancing yourself so you can handle what you're seeing and experiencing.

which doesn't account for the fact that in my rather limited experience of just one RL! SEAL, they're kinda batshit insane for reals, anyway. ;-)

(and don't get me wrong, i love my friend. but *batshit insane*, i'm tellin' ya'!)

-bs

[valiha.livejournal.com]

I totally forgot that it was a Hamlet quote, and we used to have an English Lit professor who was very passionate about Shakespeare. His overzealousness made me want to avoid reading him whenever possible - not the result he was hoping for! Anyway, I'm glad I wasn't far off. :)

I can imagine they would be, and have their own brand of humor to cope with things!

[farad.livejournal.com]

Well, not to be too offensive, the majority of ATF is constructed inaccurately in terms of realizm and, as Zeke Black has pointed out, in violation of certain constructions of canon; Chris is the 'elected' leader of the group - they follow him because they want to, not because he's 'their boss' - and, as is noted often in canon, they *don't* follow him. (Buck in GoTC and ODOW, vin in "Wagon Train" and "Obsession", Ezra in "Serpents" and GoTC, Josiah in "Penance" and "Serpents" and "The Collector", JD in "Achilles", Nathad - oh, and Vin - in "Manhunt", et cetera). And he often steps away from his leadership - "Working Girls" where he puts Buck in charge of the girls - at first anyway; "Inmate 78" where he literally runs away without telling them where he's going; "Thh Collector" where Vin ends up taking the lead in much of the worry for Nettie; ""the New Law" where he's the first to decide to leave the town, walking away before the Judge is even though talking, et cetera.

Chris' leadership is a loose construction and fragile, easily set aside by both him and any of the others. It's part of the charm of the seven coming together, that they're all very strong men with their own ideas about what to do when - and whether to do something at all. ATF and other universes that set up a 'chain of command' diminish the relationships between the seven, and when slash is added, it makes it even more unequal; the five who are not Chris' 'beloved' become second tier members of the team, ones that Chris would sacrifice first if put in the position (which is why there are literal strictures in most organizations about superiors interacting with inferiors, especially in government jobs).

This digression is all a means of saying that the seal team history is just another construction that has been modified to 'fit' into the ATF universe. It works on the surfact but has a lot of flaws in execution.

[boogieshoes.livejournal.com]

oh, certainly. my comment was at least half-way tongue in cheek.. or maybe 3/4 of the way.

and in all seriousness, i love h/c and angst, which are major parts of fandom, and something i suspect is all out of proportion to reality, too. but talking with my friend today made me realize again just *how* far from realistic relationships and behaviors we have these guys go, sometimes. and that's not even them being 'girly' or 'non-masculine' in any sense of the word - just certainly, not quite reflective of the background we give them.

i forget the differences all too readily sometimes, but when they're re-inforced, sometimes i wonder what Chris and Buck and Vin would look like if their behaviors were more realistic to the military community. it would look extremely different, i think, and that could be an interesting exploration in itself. not one i feel comfortable tackling right now, but still...

basically i'm agreeing with the why you've postulated, just saying it's something worth thinking over from time to time.

-bs

[farad.livejournal.com]

It has a lot to do with - well, perhaps 'who' you write for, but also what you want to see in your men. It's not just M7, even though I can target the specifics in that. But most women write men the way they want them to be, not how they are. It's that interesting irony - we fall in love with them because they're 'men - men who live by their own code, even when we don't always agree with it, men who prioritize the 'job' over their personal lives, men who 'walk the fine line' between legal right and wrong to make sure justice - as they believe it to be - is enforced.

and as soon as we fall in love with them for being this way, we want to change them, to 'change' their priorities so that emotional 'love' will over rule the priority structure that we fell in love with them for in the first place. (Or, to make them more like a woman.)

M7 is wonderful in that the characters are archetypes - they can be 'reconstructed' in lots of settings and concepts. Mog's concept for ATF was brilliant - and her translation does a really good job of trying to address the issues of 'individual autonomy' and the strong and often 'alpha' characterizations of all of the guys. BMP, The Cohorts - there are some awesome ATF writers who have brought the canon characters to ATF. There are a few slash writers who try to address the issues of the 'reality' of constructing a m/m relationship in an organization like the ATF, and even in a situation where there is a sincere issue of how to balance the priorities and the risks.

But I think that ATF is most popular because it's set in the present, more or less, which many writers think makes it 'easier' to write. It's not - it's harder. American law enforcement has a lot of rule - far far more than the guys in the OW had. And that's not even counting in the issues of government regulations.

[slavelabour.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with your assessment of the problems ingrained with the ATF AU. Although our assessment is entirely subjective. I have more problems with the slash fics. There are issues involved with a superior fraternising with one of his men. It's not the realism of that happening that bothers me (which does happen, all the time, sanctioned or no - hello couragecampaign.org - and I can tell you, first hand, it happens among Federal employees all the time, too), but the way that universe is generally written. The lack of balance, the chain of command, etc. Canon Chris shows signs of being a soldier, and not just a soldier but a leader. But he chafes at the bit. He has a natural, knee-jerk reaction to assessing situations and barking out orders at the drop of a hat but he doesn't like being pigeon-holed into it. So I can buy C&B as SEALs, no problem. Semi-autonomous, able to make executive life and death decisions, still willing to delegate but also listen to a superior? Check. If we want to modern-day our guys in any way, shape, or form, Chris and Buck, Nathan, and probably Josiah are the ones that need to have some sort of military background if we're trying to keep some parallel to canon.

So, yeah, flaws in the execution. But again, subjective. You know how I feel about fanon but plenty of folks looooove fanon, usually because it feeds their kinks. Nobody will ever agree on everything or write only what I want to read. Would be nice, though! ;p

[farad.livejournal.com]

I have more problems with the slash fics. There are issues involved with a superior fraternising with one of his men. It's not the realism of that happening that bothers me (which does happen, all the time, sanctioned or no - hello couragecampaign.org - and I can tell you, first hand, it happens among Federal employees all the time, too), but the way that universe is generally written. The lack of balance, the chain of command, etc.

Exactly - it's how it alters the relationships between the characters, minimizing Chris' relationship with the five others who aren't his lovers. What I'm discovering is that the ATF fic I like is gen - "Aftermath" by BMP comes to mind immediately and as the 'standard' for me. The way all six of the guys feel about Chris - their relationships with him and with each other - are so close to canon that I can *believe* in the reality of the characters in that universe. And the way Chris reacts to them - furious at them for what they did, not able to accept that to them, he was worth the sacrifices they were making.

Canonically, Chris' relationships with each of the other six are different, as are each of their relationships with each other. He's so careful about dealing with Lydia and the 'working girls', working so hard to keep the 'job' of protecting them separate from his 'personal relationship' with Lydia that I cannot see him, especially if he were in a position where his authority was clearly defined by a rigid code of ethics and conduct, mixing 'business and pleasure'.

I really think it would destroy him to be in a position where he had to make a choice between his lover and the rest of the team.

And definitely subjective *g* Poor Boogie - should we move this over to M7DB and keep her poor journal out of the line of fire?

[slavelabour.livejournal.com]

Well, boog may not want her journal linked in a comm but you can quote me, no worries. I only have one day to play in Daybook and then I'll be gone to a festival in Oklahoma until next week, though! :D

[boogieshoes.livejournal.com]

you may link if you want, or just c&p. i was about to say 'you better not move the discussion!' because i *love* exactly this kind of thing. but i'd rather have a larger fandom involvement, so maybe it's better to take it over there...

in any event, quoting and/or linking to my lj is fine. this post is public precisely because i welcome random feedback on it.

-bs

[farad.livejournal.com]

Thank you thank you! I moved it over here - http://mag7daybook.dreamwidth.org/91486.html?view=974942&posted=1#cmt974942 - and you should definitely come play!!!

[boogieshoes.livejournal.com]

thanks for the link - i was looking for an LJ comm yesterday and would never have found it, heh! i have a (very inactive) DW journal as well - same name, too. i'll have to run over there and play some more.

-bs

[farad.livejournal.com]

Excellent! It's a wonderful comm - lots of fun chatter! We love having thinky conversations!!

[slavelabour.livejournal.com]

why aren't ATF Chris and Buck doing stuff like this?

Who says they're not? :D I don't want to poke the hornet's nest of my history with the Navy but SEALs have to be at least a little psychologically not-right, not only to make it through BUD/S but through ops. They're not paid a whole lot, even with danger pay and family separation pay, etc, to do crazy shit. And they take pride in being able to do the deed, yknow? Not to sound too much like Jack Nicholson but we need them and I'm proud of them, too.

But the sailor's family, by necessity, tends to be put on hold, set aside, and sometimes forgotten in exchange for the Team. Which is a beautiful thing IF you're not the family. Even so, I can buy Chris and Buck going through BUD/S together. It is, after all, the only place commissioned and enlisted are made equals. It opens up a whole can of worms for the boys in all those months and months they trained together. And years they went on ops together. And had awful things happen to each other. So, yeah, there's your h/c for you. ;)

(FYI, every time I hear Motley Crue's 'Kick Start My Heart' and there is that line about 'skydiving naked from an aeroplane'? I always think of Chris and Buck doing nekkid HALO, lol.)

ETA I have my pom-poms at the ready for when you want to write Buck teasing Chris about being molested by gay dolphins, hee!